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Post by Hitotsumami on May 21, 2012 1:41:25 GMT -5
This was brought up in the chat a few days back, so I decided to give it its own thread. Here we can talk about different religions or lack thereof and our reasons or experiences with these believes.
For me, religion has always been interesting, even when I was younger. When I was a child, I was a Baptist Christian. It was what my parents believed and what they taught me. I would go to church every Sunday and Wednesday and I enjoyed it. I had a lot of friends there.
Eventually though, around my 10th-11th year in High School I began to question a lot of things. With some reading and research, I eventually determined that I had no good reason to believe, and I gave up my beliefs.
And now, I feel happy to be what I am, and I feel honest.
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Post by Neurotick on May 21, 2012 3:25:21 GMT -5
I think a few more options should be added to the poll...at the very least, an "agnostic" and an "other" option.
I say this mostly because I do not consider myself much of a religious person, but nor do I consider myself an atheist in the textbook sense. I do believe that there is more to life than merely our mortal experiences on Earth, that there are underlying forces to the universe, if not of a specifically "supernatural" nature, then of some type of energy or dimension we are not capable of fully comprehending. Do I think that means that God is watching us, that Jesus died for our sins or Allah showed us the light or Buddha achieved enlightenment? Pfffff fuck no. I don't believe in God any more than I believe in Odin, or Zeus, or Marduk, or Quetzalcoatl, or Osiris.
I suppose I need to give my weirdo hippie beliefs a little more context: I was raised by an ex-Catholic father with a penchant for new age ideology and a grudge against organized religion, and a vaguely spiritual but non-religious mother who claims to have had a near-death experience and fully believes in an afterlife, though has no real idea about it other than "it exists." I've spent my entire life in an area of California known mostly for three things: marijuana, redwood trees, and surfing. Within ten minutes of driving around you can find anywhere from ten to twelve churches of various sects, at least five stores dedicated new age and/or wiccan supplies, a hookah lounge or two, and, if you're lucky, graffiti dedicated to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and someone dressed up as a pirate. I have met at least one or two people who are genuine followers of Cthulu. When I was little I knew more about ancient Egyptian gods and culture than every employee at the museum dedicated to the history and beliefs of ancient Egypt. I loved reading books about mythology and ancient gods more than Dr. Seuss, Roald Dahl, and the Bearenstain Bears combined, and my parents were happy to indulge my mild obsession.
To say that my religious upbringing has been varied would be the understatement of the century.
On top of that, I was both fascinated with, and terrified of death from a very young age. When most kids were more worried about what Santa was bringing them for Christmas, I was worried about what happens to us after we die. At around the same time, I also began having uncontrollable visions of horrific monsters and graphic scenes of death and mutilation, which probably didn't help me keep my mind off of the ever present death question. (I'd later find out that I have a rather serious malfunction in my mental wiring, as it were, which manifested as the aforementioned mental images and obsession with all things related to death.)
Being a little child with no understanding of what was happening to her, or any real sense of higher reason for that matter, I wanted very very much to believe in something better. Seeing as the US is covered head to toe in bible thumpers (last time I checked, statistics said about 80% of Americans were Christian or some variation thereof) it was hard not to "know" about God, and heaven, and hell, and the devil, and angels, and everything else, even though I've never read the bible or gone to church in my life.* But no matter how much I wanted to believe in heaven, I just couldn't do it. Even as a little kid I could see the contradictions in the ideology, the corruption in the system, and given that I knew more about mythology than the average five-year-old knows about how to even read, I could see all of the blatant rip-offs from other mythologies stuck into the Christian mythos. So instead, all I had to believe in was what my parents would always tell me when I started crying for no reason because I was thinking about death, or terrified of whatever ghost I thought was haunting me:
"Everything is going to be OK."
Even today my beliefs are a constantly changing mish-mosh of things I've picked up over the years. I'm generally a skeptic at best (and a cynic at worst), but I still believe in certain things beyond the realm of modern science...if only because I think we just haven't progressed enough to fully quantify and analyze them (or are incapable of fully understanding them in our current "state"). For example, I do believe in ghosts, and spirits, and a vague notion of energy connecting everything together. This is not to say that I think ghosts are "lost souls" or that you can "commune with nature," so much as I believe there are certain phenomena that are similar to what people refer to as ghosts and spirits.
I guess in the end I'm just another hippy. Vaguely spiritual, and fully convinced that all organized religion is complete and utter bullshit.
Oh man, don't even get me started on what I think of other people's religion. I will probably antagonize just about everyone on this board if I start talking about that.
*The last time I was on church ground, we were using a barn behind the church to rehearse for the stage version of The Rocky Horror Show. With the priests' permission, because we flat out lied about what we wanted the barn for.
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Post by Hitotsumami on May 21, 2012 3:44:10 GMT -5
I should have added a "other" option, didn't even think about it. I don't know how to edit polls but if you are in the 'other' category, just say so.
Anyway, good post Ticky. I understand a lot of what you're coming from. There is just one thing:
In my opinion, I don't think we should believe anything until we have reason to. Sure, there is probably plenty we don't know, but that doesn't mean we should believe it before we get the evidence for it.
Although my atheism is only a response to one proposition, that of god's existence, it doesn't have anything to say about ghosts or spirits. I myself however do still have an opinion on ghosts.
All humans came from a single cell around three billion years ago. Through evolution, we eventually became humans. That means, more or less, we are all related and we all come from the same source. I don't see why humans are special and can live after death. If you believe humans live after death, then you should believe every life form ever lives after death, from every insect to every fish to every mammal. I myself don't think anything in biology suggests that we possess anything that would exist after we die.
Another reason I do not believe in ghosts is because in proportion to the universe, it doesn't make sense. We are less than a speck, living on a speck, around a sun which is itself a speck in a galaxy which is a speck in a universe. Humans are out of proportion to have any special after life.
A third reason is, assuming ghosts do exist, the earth must be horribly overcrowded if spirits tend to stay where they died. Over 50 billion people have existed, and if we take into consideration my earlier point that humans aren't special and all life should have afterlives, then that means trillions upon trillions of ghosts exist and the world is covered in spirits. If this were true, it should be overwhelmingly obvious and ghosts should show their effects almost constantly. Which they don't.
That is just my response to what most people would define as a ghost or spirit. You didn't give many details, so I can only give a response to the most common definition.
As for energy connecting everything, I don't know about that. But I do know what Neil DeGrasse Tyson says: "We are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically."
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Post by Neurotick on May 21, 2012 5:13:46 GMT -5
In my opinion, I don't think we should believe anything until we have reason to. Sure, there is probably plenty we don't know, but that doesn't mean we should believe it before we get the evidence for it. I think first we should define what "belief" is. In my reading of it, believing in something implies that you think it is possible but do not "know" for sure that whatever you "believe" exists due to a lack of evidence or an inability to gather data on it. For instance, much of human philosophy is belief-based, as it is nigh impossible to collect data on the innermost workings of the human mind, or the outermost workings of the universe and whether they are focused to a singular goal. Some philosophical notions believe that humans are, at their core, selfish and unsympathetic monsters who only "pretend" to be good or kind, while others believe that humans are good at their core and become cruel or selfish because of hardship or external factors. These are things that cannot be "tested" because no one person can ever truly know how another person thinks. We can look at brain scans and see what parts of the brain light up with different stimuli and infer basic conclusions from that, but until we reach a point technologically where we can accurately map abstract human thought, morality and higher cognitive functions are all a matter of what we think is right. Once someone starts believing something despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, then that belief is no longer valid. For instance, it is pure stupidity to "believe" that humans stem from the first man and (second) woman created by God, because there is a significant amount of evidence that humans evolved from the progenitors of other modern apes. While we're on the subject of evolution, there is a distinct difference between something we can believe, and something we can know. To believe in something is to accept its existence because there is no evidence suggesting otherwise, despite also having little to no positive evidence of its existence. To know something is to understand it from quantifiable data and definitive evidence. We know evolution exists, but I have no qualms with someone believing that evolution, or the inception of the universe, was begun by a higher power. Just because I don't believe in it myself doesn't mean I won't let them keep believing in it, because there's no real way to "test" their belief. If and/or when we become sufficiently advanced technologically to prove or disprove the existence of God, then we can start wagging fingers and going "haha you were wrong na na na na na na~" Either way, it does no harm to me if they're wrong, and if they turn out to be right then hey, I learned something new. ...If you believe humans live after death, then you should believe every life form ever lives after death, from every insect to every fish to every mammal. I myself don't think anything in biology suggests that we possess anything that would exist after we die. ...Another reason I do not believe in ghosts is because in proportion to the universe, it doesn't make sense. We are less than a speck, living on a speck, around a sun which is itself a speck in a galaxy which is a speck in a universe. Humans are out of proportion to have any special after life. ...A third reason is, assuming ghosts do exist, the earth must be horribly overcrowded if spirits tend to stay where they died. Ok, I was vague on my definition of ghosts and spirits, so it's to be expected that you'd make some assumptions. That's entirely my fault, but let's see if I can fix this while I'm half asleep. #1: As I said before, I do not believe that ghosts are actual spirits of formerly living people. If I had to give them a more definite description, I guess I'd call them "residue." Let's just start with the general logic my half-asleep brain is using here. Remember the definition I gave above for belief versus knowledge: - Belief 1: There is a unifying "energy" that connects everything in the universe, outside of the mere physical level. Whether it's string theory, magical woobily juice, or hell even that "God" guy I refuse to think exists, I'm not qualified to say.
- Belief 2: All things that live (show the five signs of biological life), all chemical reactions that become new matter or physical energy (combustion, stars, etc.), and all things with a physical presence (rocks, ice, planets, gasses, liquids, etc.) contain this "metaphysical" energy in relative quantities. Again, I don't get to say which as what and how much. As a general idea, let's say that "active" entities (living organisms, constant chemical processes i.e. stars) require more energy than "passive" entities (rocks, liquids).
- Belief 3: When something "dies" on a physical level (death and decay in living organisms, consumption of fuel in chemical reactions) its energy is recycled into the universe. Just as its physical matter is, but farther spread to where ever it is needed.
- Belief 4: Occasional spikes or dips in energy "usage" may occur, resulting in residual energy being left behind after death, excess energy displacing improperly, etc.
- Belief 5: When such phenomena occur they may leave energy "residue" from the dead (ghosts--yes, that means fish and insect ghosts, and even star ghosts, can exist too) or a feeling of "presence" from otherwise normal areas (spirits--essentially things that are more "in tune" [have more "energy"]).
Hopefully that's less vague...I've been up for a while at this point. #2: My only mention of a distinct afterlife is my mother's own belief in it. I personally remain skeptic of a specific "afterlife" for humans. As much as I would like to live on past my death, much like the stories of angels and demons and God and the Devil, I see no reason to believe in it personally. And hell, if I turn out to be wrong and there is an afterlife, I'll be pleasantly surprised. As a side note, you keep saying that humans are nothing special, but we kind of are. Do I think that means we get special treatment from the universe? Probably not, but the fact that we even exist in the physical world alone is an amazing feat of nature. There is no other species on Earth that is capable of what humans have done by a long shot. Yes there are many species with comparable intellects, but you don't see dolphins building a LHC to look for atomically miniscule particles in an attempt to further science, or orangutans constructing massive cities and monuments, or chimpanzees writing sonnets and trying to describe the deepest visions of their imagination with nothing but paint and canvas (unless they're trained to do it first by...you guessed it, humans). For as tiny and as miniscule as we are, we're still pretty damn special. I mean hell, if we had been born as any other species on the planet we would never have even known that each other existed, let alone have been able to communicate with each other across thousands of miles within mere seconds. And we wouldn't be having a conversation about the workings of the mind and the universe at large and what it all means, if anything. Do I think we have an afterlife waiting for us when we die? Not really. But I think out of any of the creatures we know, we're the closest to getting one. ==== TL;DR version: If someone's beliefs aren't getting in the way of anything, who gives a flying fuck?
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Post by Hitotsumami on May 21, 2012 5:43:12 GMT -5
To the first part of your post:
When I say 'believe' I mean that you think what you are saying is true or exists. For example, I believe that the moon exists. I do not believe that alien giraffes exist. I believe the moon exists because I have reason to believe it exists. I do not believe alien giraffes exist because I have no reason to believe they do.
A person can believe whatever they want. However, I still don't think you should believe a higher power used evolution or created the universe, because we have no evidence that one did.
You don't believe something (think that something is true) until you have reason to. If you don't have the ability to gather data on something, then the most honest answer to the existence of that thing is "I don't know."
As for your other point, about the difference between believing and knowing, I don't like to use the word 'know'. I don't like to use it because I don't know anything for complete certain. I only have varying levels of belief.
Now for the next part of your post. #1
Why do you believe there is a unifying energy that connects everything in the universe? I am aware you don't know there is a unifying force, but you do believe there is. Why? That has to be answered before I can address the rest of your points. To respond to a quote:
This isn't right. If you say to believe something is to accept its existence because there is no evidence otherwise, then anyone can believe any crazy thing. What is the usefulness of this? I can believe underground pluto frogs just as the person next to me can believe inter dimensional beings are visiting us. There is no evidence otherwise, but this doesn't give any reason to believe it. It's nonsensical to believe in something because we can't say it isn't true.
To believe something means you are convinced of it. To be convinced of something, you should have reason to be convinced. What is your reason to believe in your universal energy claim?
I don't have much to say to your #2. Just one opinion:
I would also not mind living after death. However, I would like to know that I would eventually fade away, because living forever is torture in my eyes.
As for humans being special. I meant that humans having our characteristics shouldn't grant us an afterlife since biologically we are basically the same as all other animals. We all use DNA as a base, are made of cells, and reproduce. Every animal has pros and cons. Humans are smart. Lions are fast. Fish can breathe underwater. Birds can fly. Humans can do those things too by use of machine, but only in recent history. For a few million years we were using stone and survives by following our food. Most humans these days don't do amazing things like discover atomic secrets or design cities. Most humans do very basic jobs and live very regular lives that heavily depend on others. So basically, I think humans are just as special as any other animal.
That is a side point though.
So to sum up, I explained what I mean by believe. Pretty much the dictionary definition. I question your belief, and I explain why I don't think humans are more special than other animals.
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Post by CJ on May 21, 2012 7:58:31 GMT -5
Wow, you guys have put up a lot. It really inspired me. Good work. I'll do my best to contribute.
- Enter the Catholic.
My grandfather had one task for my agnostic father to complete if he were ever to marry to my Catholic mother. He was to take my mother to Medjugorje, Bosnia for a week's time.
I don't know exactly what changed my father's mind there. Apparently there were many supernatural moments he (though not my mother) witnessed. There are countless stories of miracles and other occurrences that baffled me even when I was strongest in my faith. It transformed him from a typical American who knew nothing about religion to the second best Catholic I know. This is a weak, pathetic argument, but it is his experience that is one of the only reasons I still hold on to my faith.
There was a time in my life when I couldn't understand why anyone could be an atheist. Now I admire anyone who can call themselves a true believer. It is harder to accept a faith countered by nearly everyone, whose followers seem stupider than even the hardest of Twilight fans.
Unfortunately, there is nearly nothing I can do about my fellow Catholics. Despite a general acceptance around the Catholic Church to treat the Adam and Eve story as a metaphor for intelligent design in creation and evolution, there are some that still thump their Bibles saying it is word for word truth. Well, if you believe that every thing in the Bible is "truth," then a person must believe that there is water above the Earth that makes the sky blue. Also, it's what makes it rain (Genesis 1:6-8).
However, you can take that same passage and interpret it as early Judaism's understanding of how rain works. It still does not lose its meaning, which is: "God intended on the sky to form." I learned this from my dear, wonderful Catholic Old Testament teacher, who I will never forget for her metaphorical punch to my gut for all of my stupid notions on the Bible. I can never thank her enough for that.
Who says that God created stuff out of poofs and magic? I like to think he was a little more creative than that. Our world is full of mystery, science and wonder. I like to think he made the universe the same way.
I really recommend watching the Futurama episode "A Clockwork Origin" to understand more of what the true Catholic vision evolution is. It's also an incredibly funny episode.
As for other problems, at least in the Catholic faith, a lot of it is misunderstood, mostly by our own followers. My stance on homosexuality is pretty neutral (though I do support gay marriage). Our Church believes we should treat each other as Jesus treated the sinners, tax men and prostitutes he associated himself with. We should treat each other with love. Unfortunately, many people forgot about that whole "love" aspect and form the "God Hates Fags" dumb protestors you see today. I hate that Catholics and Christians are subject to the stereotype of those protestors, when our religion was founded on the exact opposite notion (John 3:16). Besides, we are all "sinners." Why aren't these same, crazy individuals also condemning smokers and excessive drinkers?
My own faith, as some of you might know, went away for some time last year. For some reason, I started to consider all of the flaws of my religion. Going from knowing I was going to have eternal life to "oh, I probably won't and the brother I only had a connection to through joined prayer is properly dead and gone forever," was one of the toughest things I had to go through. I stopped seeing friends, stopped writing and effectively left Manga Ground leading to the eventual collapse of the website oh my gosh I'm so sorry please forgive me I'll never leave you again WHY WHY
When I first started dating my boyfriend that year, my faith slowly came back. I don't know what it was. Maybe it was just because I realized I was believing in something ridiculous anyway (I mean, bread that's supposed to be flesh? That's pretty out there. Also, I guess I'm allergic to Christ). Maybe it was because I had something to look forward to in him.
Don't get me wrong, I still am partially agnostic. I will continue to go to Mass every Sunday with the simple hope that there is a part of what I'm celebrating that is true. If anything, going to Mass gives me peace. I know it's a "waste of time" and isn't doing me any good, but it makes me happy in the least.
My sisters and cousins are taking the same trip to Medjugorje my mother and father once took. I'm excited to hear what they discover. All I can do is hope there is something out there. I want to be able to finally meet the brother I never knew. I hope I get the chance.
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Post by Hitotsumami on May 21, 2012 10:01:37 GMT -5
Good post CJ. I know a lot of that stuff is personal for you so I won't respond to a lot of your points I might have disagreements with. So with that, I'll just respond to one point.
It's in response to the idea that you can't take all of the Bible literally, like the creation story and Adam and Eve. My only real problem with this is that it seems you can choose willingly what story is a metaphor and what story actually happened. If you can say Adam and Eve was just a metaphor, can you say Jonah and the Whale is a metaphor? What about Noah? Was Moses and the plagues a metaphor? If you're able to choose what is a metaphor based on what we know about ourselves today, then it seems kind of impossible to know what actually happened.
In my mind, the God I'm told about is one that is all powerful. If he is truly all powerful and can do anything, I think he could have gotten his word around better than a very old collection of stories that are prone to mistranslation, mistake, and forgery. If I were God, I would make it overwhelming obvious that I existed to the point no one could deny me. I would appear and talk to the individuals and answer their questions. God made us skeptical beings, so it seems wrong for him to punish us for that as well.
There are some other points, but that is all I will say for now. Thanks for the post CJ
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Post by Xero on May 21, 2012 14:15:39 GMT -5
Honestly, I really do not feel like reading everything that was posted (maybe I will when I get free time). But I think it is no secret to anyone here that I am not religious at all, but at the same time, I really do not consider myself an Atheist. Maybe I am more agnostic or perhaps more Buddhist. The thing is, I do not know if there is a God or if there is a Heaven or Hell waiting for us. I do not know and I am not going to pretend to know.
What I do know is that there is generally a scientific explanation for almost everything, and the events that occurred in the Bible can have a scientific explanation.
I basically live my life to my own beliefs and answer only to myself. In the end, if there is a God, I would believe that that is what he would want from his "children."
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Post by Neurotick on May 21, 2012 14:25:05 GMT -5
A person can believe whatever they want. However, I still don't think you should believe a higher power used evolution or created the universe, because we have no evidence that one did. You don't believe something (think that something is true) until you have reason to. If you don't have the ability to gather data on something, then the most honest answer to the existence of that thing is "I don't know." As for your other point, about the difference between believing and knowing, I don't like to use the word 'know'. I don't like to use it because I don't know anything for complete certain. I only have varying levels of belief. You keep saying "you" Like you think I actually believe that God created the universe. I specifically said that I do not believe in God or a higher power creating the universe. Multiple times. I was merely using it as an example. While we're at it, let's take a look at your definition of belief. please note that this is not the textbook definition as you keep saying. The textbook definition is, in fact: be·lief
noun /biˈlēf/ beliefs, plural
An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists - his belief in the value of hard work - a belief that solitude nourishes creativity
Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction - contrary to popular belief, Aramaic is a living language - we're prepared to fight for our beliefs
A religious conviction - Christian beliefs - I'm afraid to say belief has gone - local beliefs and customs
Trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something - a belief in democratic politics - I've still got belief in myself
Web definitions
any cognitive content held as true
impression: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed; "his impression of her was favorable"; "what are your feelings about the crisis?"; "it strengthened my belief in his sincerity"; "I had a feeling that she was lying"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
(believing) the cognitive process that leads to convictions; "seeing is believing"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief
Mental acceptance of a claim as truth regardless of supporting or contrary empirical evidence; Something believed; The quality or state of believing; Religious faith; One's religious or moral convictions
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/belief
(beliefs) (p. 67) specific statements that people hold to be true
cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pubbooks/macionis7/chapter3/custo…
(beliefs) Subjective ideas about what is true and not true for ourselves, other people, and the world.
livingwellnlp.com/glossary/
(Beliefs) The rules, attitudes, and assumptions we hold about ourselves, others, and the world around us. The thoughts that express these beliefs.
www.skysite.org/primer/definitions.html
(Beliefs) The generalizations we have made about causality, meaning, self, others, behaviors, identity, etc. Our beliefs are what we take as being "true" at any moment. Beliefs guide us guide us in perceiving and interpreting reality. Beliefs relate closely to values. ... The list goes on and on, but I think you just stopped at the first definition and assumed that was true for all uses of the word "belief." Just because you are uncomfortable saying that you "know" something doesn't mean the rest of us are. The argument you are posing actually stems from another classic philosophy theory that, since we are beings firmly trapped in our own minds, we cannot know that anything is real. Hell, let's not forget about how easily our senses can be fooled. Anyone remember Neil DeGrasse Tyson's quip about optical illusions, a.k.a. "brain failures?" Anyway, back to philosophy. If we cannot know that anything is real, then we cannot test the "realness" of anything. Therefore, empirical evidence means nothing. So then we're back to belief, which is currently where you are at the moment--"I believe that things proven by scientific evidence exist." But wait a minute! How do you know what to believe now? We've just established that empirical, testable evidence means nothing. Everything you believe exists could be entirely wrong. "Well," you might say, "other people can also observe the world around them, and through corroboration of our experiences and observations, I can determine what to believe in." This presupposes that other people even exist. Maybe we don't. If there is no way to determine what reality is then there is no way to determine whether anything exists. If you believe that reality as you observe it exists, then you must also believe that there are distinct parts of reality that are true based on hard evidence and therefore knowable. The moon goes around the earth. The earth goes around the sun. The sun is a star in the Milky Way galaxy, which is only one of thousands upon thousands of other galaxies in the universe. Other people exist and can corroborate this evidence of existence through testable data. But this is a religion thread, not a philosophy thread (funny how those always end up being the same thing after a while...). For more info you should look up Plato (some craaaazy stuff there), Kant, and especially Sartre. As I recall Sartre is actually the one who describes everything I just did, though I could be wrong. Why do you believe there is a unifying energy that connects everything in the universe? I am aware you don't know there is a unifying force, but you do believe there is. Why? That has to be answered before I can address the rest of your points. (and later) To believe something means you are convinced of it. To be convinced of something, you should have reason to be convinced. What is your reason to believe in your universal energy claim? Personal experience, more than anything. I may be a bit biased thanks to my faulty wiring, but I have experienced otherwise unexplainable phenomena that can be attributed to the ideas of "ghosts," "spirits," and the idea that things are connected beyond a physical level. Since I am not religious myself, I've constructed a basic "idea" of what might be an explanation. And don't think I just jumped straight to the "IT MUST BE GHOSTS CALL THE GHOSTBUSTERS" conclusion, either. As I continually have said, I am a skeptic. I tried to find physical, testable, repeatable explanations for some of the things I've experienced, and have been as of yet unable to find any. This isn't right. If you say to believe something is to accept its existence because there is no evidence otherwise, then anyone can believe any crazy thing. What is the usefulness of this? I can believe underground pluto frogs just as the person next to me can believe inter dimensional beings are visiting us. There is no evidence otherwise, but this doesn't give any reason to believe it. It's nonsensical to believe in something because we can't say it isn't true. Since your belief about underground Pluto frogs doesn't affect me in any way I'll let you go on believing in it, but you actually just answered your own question without knowing it. First of all, what's the point of believing in something that doesn't affect the rest of reality? Are the underground Pluto frogs the secret masterminds behind life on earth? Do they somehow cause earthquakes? Second, even if someone did believe that there are frogs living underground on Pluto, it makes no sense to believe in it from my aforementioned standpoint because a) frogs are specifically designed to work within an ecosystem on earth and b) pluto is a lifeless piece of rock out on the edge of the galaxy. Both of these statements are observable and testable, thereby creating substantial evidence against the existence of pluto frogs. In my mind, the God I'm told about is one that is all powerful. If he is truly all powerful and can do anything, I think he could have gotten his word around better than a very old collection of stories that are prone to mistranslation, mistake, and forgery. If I were God, I would make it overwhelming obvious that I existed to the point no one could deny me. I would appear and talk to the individuals and answer their questions. God made us skeptical beings, so it seems wrong for him to punish us for that as well. Even the existence of God as described in Christian faith is testable, to a point. The idea of God is that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. All powerful, all seeing, and all good. God must have all three qualities at once. Unfortunately, these three things directly contradict each other. If God is all good, then he should see all of the wickedness in the world and use his power to end it. If he continues to allow evil to exist, then he is not all good. If he allows evil to exist even though he is all good, then he is either powerless to stop it (no longer omnipotent), or unable to combat all of it (no longer omniscient). While we're at it, if God knows all things that have happened and will happen (all-seeing again), then he already knows who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. In which case, free will is useless as God has already decided where you are going. If there is no free will, then God is subjecting people to eternal suffering knowingly and willingly, and cannot be omnibenevolent. And then of course, there's the philosophical quandary: if god is omnipotent, is he capable of creating a stone so heavy that even he cannot move it? If he cannot create the rock then he is not omnipotent, neither is he omnipotent if he cannot move it. But again I'm wandering back into philosophy. Let's go back to the original question: Why believe in something with no evidence for or against it? A person can believe anything, but that doesn't mean that they should just because they can. I believe in an underlying connection between all things in the universe because I have no other explanation for some of my experiences. I don't believe that there are frogs on Pluto because as we've already discussed, it's a fallible belief. I'm going to cop out and take a quote from a movie for this one. It pretty much describes how I think belief should be used though, so...yeah. Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in. As for humans being special. I meant that humans having our characteristics shouldn't grant us an afterlife since biologically we are basically the same as all other animals. We all use DNA as a base, are made of cells, and reproduce. Every animal has pros and cons. Humans are smart. Lions are fast. Fish can breathe underwater. Birds can fly. Humans can do those things too by use of machine, but only in recent history. For a few million years we were using stone and survives by following our food. Most humans these days don't do amazing things like discover atomic secrets or design cities. Most humans do very basic jobs and live very regular lives that heavily depend on others. So basically, I think humans are just as special as any other animal. There is one other thing humans do that no other animal does; we observe the universe and constantly wonder "why?" Where other animals accept their existence and continue on without knowing why the sun is bright, why night time happens, why the stars move, we sit here and spend more time wondering about the inner workings of life than many animals have time to even live. We are, in essence, the universe looking back at itself. We're so small and insignificant, yet we constantly strive for more than what we already have, to know more than we already do. It's like having a single red blood cell in the human body suddenly gain sentience; we're a crazy anomaly with no idea how much impact we might or might not have. No, we are not the fastest animal or the strongest. No, we don't have wings to fly or fins to swim. Depending on who you ask, we aren't even the smartest. What we are, though, is a species of unmatched potential.
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Post by Hitotsumami on May 21, 2012 14:28:53 GMT -5
@ Xero
Thanks for posting. I just wanted to say, a lot of Buddhists are actually atheists. Of course, they practice other rituals as well, but to the question of god's existence, yeah most Buddhists don't believe in god.
As for the subject of agnosticism, I didn't put that on the list because agnosticism deals with what you know. If you're agnostic, you don't know. If you're gnostic, you do know. So I'm an agnostic atheist. You are probably that as well. It is possible for some people to be agnostic christians, or gnostic islamists. That is why I didn't include agnosticism in the poll.
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Post by Shark a' Pult on May 21, 2012 14:30:23 GMT -5
I didn't read any of this shit, but I agree with Ticky, that there should be an agnostic option.
If there was then I'd be inclined to talk about it.
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Post by Neurotick on May 21, 2012 14:30:53 GMT -5
I still think you should have at least put an "other" option.
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Post by Shark a' Pult on May 21, 2012 14:32:23 GMT -5
Yes that's a better idea than mine.
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Post by Hitotsumami on May 21, 2012 14:49:13 GMT -5
@ Ticky
When I use 'you' I just use that word because I don't know another word to use there. I don't mean it directed at you. I mean it generally. And my comment about a higher power was just a side comment not directed at you, but just at your point that someone could possibly believe that.
As for the definition of belief, I used the first one. Usually the first definition given is the most popular definition, so I use that one.
As for the next part of your post: I believe the universe exists. I don't know if it does. But I'm pretty sure. Therefore I have to know some things about reality. All I can really know is that I exist. As for the moon going around the sun, the universe has to exist for the moon to exist. But if I assume the universe exists, then I can say that the moon exists as well. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here and I am confused about this.
All I am trying to say is that my definition of belief is: I am sure something is true. Just use that definition when I use the word belief. I use the most popular definition of belief to make things simple. If you want to use another definition of belief, then use that definition in the front of your post so I can understand what you're saying.
I have no response to this. Your experience is your own justification.
There isn't a point in believing in something that doesn't affect the rest of reality, since that thing would be indistinguishable from not existing at all.
As for the frog thing, I was just trying to think of some outlandish claim. Use the inter dimensional visitors for a better analogy. Or just god.
As for your three or so paragraphs about god and his self contradictions, I agree with all of that.
I agree, as I said in my previous post. Also, you don't have evidence you can share about the existence of your definition of spirits, because it was a personal experience, so there is no way I can respond to that.
I think all animals have equal potential given enough time. In a few hundred million years humans might have died out and apes become intelligent enough to question reality. Or any animal could, given time and evolution. We were just the first.
You can respond to this post if you want and I will reply again. But I got off topic so I will try to go back to religion, since this is a religious thread. I'll try to talk more about why I do or do not believe god exists.
Overall, I think we can agree that neither of us believe (as in, is convinced of the existence of) in God. That is very simple.
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Post by Hitotsumami on May 21, 2012 14:51:14 GMT -5
Also I don't know how to edit polls, so just say if you're other.
As for agnosticism, I explained that earlier. I don't think agnosticism is a position in relation to the existence of God. It is a level of knowledge that all religions and non-religions have.
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