|
Post by Xero on May 22, 2012 11:39:37 GMT -5
@ Xero Thanks for posting. I just wanted to say, a lot of Buddhists are actually atheists. Of course, they practice other rituals as well, but to the question of god's existence, yeah most Buddhists don't believe in god. As for the subject of agnosticism, I didn't put that on the list because agnosticism deals with what you know. If you're agnostic, you don't know. If you're gnostic, you do know. So I'm an agnostic atheist. You are probably that as well. It is possible for some people to be agnostic christians, or gnostic islamists. That is why I didn't include agnosticism in the poll. Buddhists are more in tune with their own knowledge and existence. But I understand why you did not going into any specifics when creating the poll. I guess you can say I could be a agnostic atheist. It would apply. God may exist, he may not. When we all die, we will find out.
|
|
|
Post by Shark a' Pult on May 22, 2012 14:10:47 GMT -5
I agree that if you changed most things, the universe would not be able to exist. However, the universe is not completely fine tuned. For example, one of the four fundamental forces of the universe, the Weak Interaction could not exist at all and the universe could still potentially survive and not be so much different than our universe. If the universe was planned and created, I don't see why an intelligent creator would overlook this. That seems rather marginal, to find one thing that feasibly refutes the point, and then to jump on it because we don't fully understand the implications. I am reminded of the suspended disbelief notion (I believe that was the term for it), with the idea of the unexplainable being a point of diminishing returns. What I'm basically getting at is that I have no idea how the universe came into being, and I believe whatever the reason is, that reason is currently unknown and may even be unreachable forever. That is why I do not propose the universe was created intelligently, because there are so many alternatives that we may have no even discovered or thought of yet. I agree, and not once in my comments did I try to offer an answer as to why the universe is, just common beliefs as to how it is. No one is bold enough to say they know why the universe was created, but the more and more we learn, the more and more definite is our understanding of how.
|
|
|
Post by CJ on May 22, 2012 19:17:22 GMT -5
So, lets say, we didn't know about evolution or the history of the earth. Would you believe in Genesis then? What I'm getting at is that as science makes new discoveries that go against Bible claims, religious people can simply say that the story is a metaphor to get out of having to explain. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, that is another problem. It seriously sounds like we're explaining it so it can still be viable. However... the Bible does that to itself already. Most people don't know that there are actually two accounts of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis, and they contradict each other. This is why I have a huge problem with Genesis. This website explains it a bit better. Explanations for old, outdated text were part of a huge reason as to why innovators and scientists were persecuted by the early Church. It's a sad problem. In response to Hell and the after life, don't you think Hell in itself is atrocious? In my mind, an infinite punishment for a finite crime is never acceptable. A Catholic visionary, Marija of Medjugorje had this to say on the matter in an interview. This only raises more questions, of course. Catholicism believes people choose their own destinies. However, lying to God is impossible, so the truth is the only answer, as Marija stated. So, for example, if Hitler and Gandhi were to die at the same time, Hitler would have to say he deserved Hell and Gandhi would have no problem saying he deserved Heaven or menial time in Purgatory to prepare for Heaven. This is what Catholicism has to say on the matter. I'm not sure if it's the truth or not. As I've stated before, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, also known as the end of the world, everyone will be judged again, even those in Hell. So a person in Hell could have eternal life if they sought out God. You also mentioned some people believe baptism is the only way, and some people don't. Is the Bible not clear on this? If it can go any way, how can anyone be sure? You would imagine and all powerful God would make sure the rules are very clear for his people to follow. But, given how many hundreds of different sects there are, it doesn't seem that is so. Again, I bring up the passage I quoted before about Jesus and the criminals executed with him. The man who asked Jesus to remember him when he enters paradise was saved. It is highly suggested this man was not Jewish (or Christian because they didn't exist at the time) and was likely an immoral man. However, he found Jesus his own way. In essence, anyone can enter Heaven if they know Jesus or they love their neighbor and work to promote good throughout the world. In essence, like the criminal, those who do good and seek justice in our world are realizing God through their own path. My Baptist friend and I always bicker on this topic when I say that a African girl with no connection to our outside, Christian world can achieve Heaven. None of what I'm saying, unfortunately, has any scientific evidence. I merely present it as a Catholic's side to the argument. Shark's posts have been incredibly informative and so well thought out. I wish I could format my posts like his (I seem to notice this trend in our RPG posts as well). In fact, all of what everyone is saying is really cool. Growing up on a Catholic-only education didn't give me a lot of options. Coming here though is really opening my eyes to the possibilities of human creation and development. Thanks for that. Seriously.
|
|
|
Post by Hitotsumami on May 22, 2012 23:22:41 GMT -5
@ Shark
Thanks for replying, I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. If you have anything else to mention in relation to religions, feel free to post.
@ CJ
Thanks again for responding. You are clearing up a few things for me.
You see, from what I've heard from Christians, including my parents, is that you can get into heaven by faith alone, or 'sola fide'. This means that works and good things you do on earth does not matter, only believing that Jesus died for you and he is the only way matters.
I am not as well versed in Catholicism as I am in Protestant sects. I definitely need to do some more research in the topic. But I'm glad you're here to learn from.
I do have some questions.
In response to "we send ourselves to Hell" I have two disagreements.
My first is that there is NO crime that permits eternal punishment. A finite crime does not deserve an infinite punishment, it deserves a finite punishment. Therefore, any person appearing before God and thinking back over his life should come to the conclusion that they should be punished, but only temporarily, because they only made temporary crimes.
Next. I'm not sure if in Catholicism God is all knowing, but I believe he is. If God is all knowing, then he knows before he creates the individual if he is going to go the heaven or hell. Why would God create an individual knowing that person will go to hell?
I'm sorry if I am missing something or they are pressing questions, but I am honestly interested in your point of view. To be honest, compared to protestant denominations, Catholicism seems more convincing in some ways.
Thanks again for the response CJ!
|
|
|
Post by CJ on May 23, 2012 22:27:15 GMT -5
Wanted to take my time writing this. This discussion is too great. Thanks again for responding. You are clearing up a few things for me. Sure thing. I like presenting the Catholic side of issues, even when I don't agree with them. The Church isn't properly represented sometimes. In response to "we send ourselves to Hell" I have two disagreements. My first is that there is NO crime that permits eternal punishment. A finite crime does not deserve an infinite punishment, it deserves a finite punishment. Therefore, any person appearing before God and thinking back over his life should come to the conclusion that they should be punished, but only temporarily, because they only made temporary crimes. I can't agree with this more. This was a thought that confused me ever since I could think logically. Even Hitler, if he suffered for millions upon millions of years, wouldn't deserve eternity. As I've mentioned before, there is a second chance for those in Hell, though not a guarantee. I have the same issue you have. It seems a bit sadistic if you ask me. Next. I'm not sure if in Catholicism God is all knowing, but I believe he is. If God is all knowing, then he knows before he creates the individual if he is going to go the heaven or hell. Why would God create an individual knowing that person will go to hell? That's another thing that has bothered me my whole life. In the Bible, God is shown to know events of the future through prophecies and other signs. So why would he create a person knowing they will become evil? Why would he create a child destined to die young? Why would God allow for the creation of nuclear weapons? You always hear the phrases, "God has a plan" and "This happened for a reason" but it seems cruel and unusual. I could get not explaining truths to humanity for them to discover later but why allow evil? It just seems terribly pointless. Thanks again for the responses, Hito the Tsunami.
|
|
|
Post by Shark a' Pult on May 24, 2012 1:12:22 GMT -5
Wanted to take my time writing this. This discussion is too great. Thanks again for responding. You are clearing up a few things for me. Sure thing. I like presenting the Catholic side of issues, even when I don't agree with them. The Church isn't properly represented sometimes. I can't agree with this more. This was a thought that confused me ever since I could think logically. Even Hitler, if he suffered for millions upon millions of years, wouldn't deserve eternity. As I've mentioned before, there is a second chance for those in Hell, though not a guarantee. I have the same issue you have. It seems a bit sadistic if you ask me. Next. I'm not sure if in Catholicism God is all knowing, but I believe he is. If God is all knowing, then he knows before he creates the individual if he is going to go the heaven or hell. Why would God create an individual knowing that person will go to hell? That's another thing that has bothered me my whole life. In the Bible, God is shown to know events of the future through prophecies and other signs. So why would he create a person knowing they will become evil? Why would he create a child destined to die young? Why would God allow for the creation of nuclear weapons? You always hear the phrases, "God has a plan" and "This happened for a reason" but it seems cruel and unusual. I could get not explaining truths to humanity for them to discover later but why allow evil? It just seems terribly pointless. Thanks again for the responses, Hito the Tsunami. A problem of my own, with the whole heaven or hell spiel. Who determines what is good or evil, heaven or hell worthy? The world is a big place with many different people and customs, and I am reminded of an old theorem. The idea that, murder and such atrocious acts are evil correct? But imagine you grew up and lived in a headhunter society, something which actually exists in the world. It would not only be logical, but it would also be socially acceptable for you to partake in murder and the collection of heads. In fact, it would make perfect sense for you to be jealous of your neighbor for having killed more people and collected more heads than you. In a sense, the person who kills and claims the most heads, is not only the person of highest social standing but they would also be morally correct in their actions and lives. Heck in some cases even religiously they would be living the correct way and serving their own faith. Now there are people that live like this even today, and have never seen the outside world, or have never heard of religions other than their own. They have no way of knowing that under different circumstances the way they live is abhorrent, or that the deities of other religions frown upon their actions (at least I surely hope they do). Under what justification would the deserve punishment for their actions? When the saint and the headhunter die and stand before God, who goes to heaven? Even moreso, what if the headhunter was the pinnacle of what his culture praised, morally, socially, even religiously and in their life may never have done wrong. The saint on the other hand, though hopefully a good person, knows of the word of god, and though they live by their beliefs, invariably would have sinned some times in their life. By this logic, is the saint less apt for heaven? And don't say it's because the saint was fortunate enough to have been born into a place where religion was known and spread. Because then there is literally no way the headhunter could stand a chance, despite the whole situation being wholly outside his control. What more, to the lined up before God to answer for sins, much the same as with the headhunter having to answer for all the murder and headtaking he has committed, as being class acts and acceptable for him, are we not faced with discrepancies under this situation? If the idea is God is infallible and cannot be lied to, what if the person actually believes they are in the right? As CJ mentioned, Hitler committed indescribable atrocities, but one thing going for the man; he wholly and completely believed in what he was doing that it was the right thing. And with him, so did Nazi Germany. Like the headhunters, a society built around the acceptance and even worship of the abhorrent, but in this case mainstream religion is even present. Now the question is, whether Hitler was delusional and thusly his beliefs being true, is that his fault for believing it? That's just my two cents on that matter, mainly because I wanted to bring up the headhunter theorem because I find always find it interesting. --- On another matter for which I quoted CJ, but generally refer to in this thread; why did God create or allow for evil? I'm no religious expert, but I think in most any religion one of the most important tenets is the allowing of free will and choice. It could be seen as a terrible thing that God would allow for evil people to act or even exist, but it would be far more terrible to not allow them to choose to be that way. There is nothing more important than allowing a man to live and choose and think for himself, and if God were to intervene and prevent him from living, choosing or thinking evil, then that would be far worse than what the man could ever do. From my understanding, and not just of Abrahamic religions, religion, belief and faith only functions and matters if we the believers do so of our own volition. There is no importance or value for faith in God, if the God enforced the faith. I hope that made sense?
|
|
|
Post by Hitotsumami on May 24, 2012 4:19:38 GMT -5
I somewhat agree with this.
My only problem is this: I put myself in God's shoes. If I were God and I had the choice to either a) make people but know that there would be bad, horrible people and much much suffering, or b) not make people, I would not make people.
For example, if you're in a living situation where you can't support a child, and you know that child is going to have a very rough childhood full of bad living conditions, sanitary problems, hunger, lack of education, I would just not create a child at all instead of creating one and letting that child suffer.
That is my opinion on that matter.
|
|
|
Post by Kyubey on May 24, 2012 18:54:02 GMT -5
So I spent a lot of time thinking about these things. And for the life of me I couldn't come up with a definitive answer I could write down. If you were to strictly put down my beliefs, I guess you could say I'm atheist, but honestly that seems a little too definite for me. If there was a higher power out there, great, but I have no way of knowing that, and nobody's ever strongly convinced me otherwise. For the most part, though, I feel like it's not really my business if there is something out there or not. This might seem a little shallow, but I feel like there's way too many things here on Earth I have to worry about for me to think too hard about things I have no means of proving or disproving. As for what happens when I die, it'd be nice if there was something else for me to look forward to, but I can only know for certain when I'm dead, and after that I don't think there's much room for change, so I'm gonna focus more on improving the life I have right now.
From an early age, I wasn't religious. My grandparents are all fiercely religious, and my parents are less religious, but still took me to church every Christmas Eve. I hated it, plain and simple. I always loathed the notion that my morality was constantly being judged based on someone else's rulebook, especially when their rules didn't match up with what I thought was right. So for the most part, I never exactly paid a lot of attention to religious matters. So I've just lived doing what I personally thought was good, at least as much as I was able. I haven't always succeeded, and I've made more mistakes than I can count, mainly due to my rampant carelessness, but I still try to do what I think is best, and it's not because of a need to obey any specific, iron-clad set of laws or anything. it's all I can do to attempt to be the best person I can, and whether I succeed or not I have no idea, but at least I tried. I have heard some invaluable advice over the years, and I've had experiences that shaped my entire life, but all of the choices I've made have been my own, or at least I like to think that way.
I know this isn't a subject I have any business commenting on at all, so I'll probably stop talking here before I make a fool out of myself further, but I might come back if I feel there's something I can say. Sorry for not being nearly as thoughtful or eloquent as everyone else.
|
|
|
Post by CJ on May 27, 2012 16:33:03 GMT -5
Kylor, this topic isn’t supposed to be entirely intellectual or exclusive. Treat it like the rest of this forum, a sane place for us all to escape too, knowing we can discuss things logically and respectfully. Thank you for sharing your story with us.
I like your thinking of working on the present rather than focusing on things after death. I feel like it’s a stance more people need to take. Focus on the now so the future can be better for you and others.
Shark's headhunter example is a perfect scenario to explain why I think the "Baptism = Heaven" ideal is so flawed. In that society, headhunting is perfectly normal, so much so that the person would never have a conscientious objection to it.
The "truth serum" argument takes that into account still, however. The person, when meeting with God, wouldn't say: "I've done terrible things and therefore I deserve x." That person instead would say: "I've done terrible things without knowledge of it and therefore deserve x." We believe that God takes millions of factors into consideration. For example, punishment for suicide is supposed to be Hell. However, many suicides are caused by depression, mental illness, or an escape from a worse fate. Another example, you wouldn't punish a child who unwittingly drank vodka thinking it was water. Yes, the child did something he shouldn’t have done but he doesn’t deserve punishment for it.
As for the free will argument, it’s weird how intelligent Shark is. He just reminded me of how important free will is to Catholicism and other Monotheistic religions. I really don’t have an argument to present on the issue but thank you for reminding me about it, Shark.
As for suffering:
Sometimes we have love and sometimes we lose love. Sometimes love can hurt terribly like a deep wound. In our world we have lots of ups and downs, pleasures and pains. But that’s life and we learn to accept the bad with the good. Without the bad times we wouldn’t appreciate the good times. Life is precious and I cherish every single moment.
Quoted from the great prophet Sailor Moon. I remember my dad saying something very similar. He told me the death of others is difficult to go through but they remind us to cherish those who are still living.
I don’t mean to offend or insult you when I say this, Hito. Your argument is dangerously close to abortion arguments. I would rather not take this discussion into a Pro Life Pro Choice battle but I noticed that. That discussion would be for a whole other thread.
|
|
|
Post by Hitotsumami on May 27, 2012 18:50:01 GMT -5
@ CJ
Well it is more like abstinence rather than abortion.
Either God creates life knowing some of it will suffer forever, or he doesn't create any at all.
Or he creates a system where we still have free will but suffering doesn't happen. Given his attribute of being all powerful, such a thing should be possible.
|
|
|
Post by Shark a' Pult on May 28, 2012 2:09:23 GMT -5
If you give people free will, some are going to do bad, and with it create suffering.
Even a supreme being cannot prevent that, no matter what system is created. Free will comes at a cost.
|
|
|
Post by Hitotsumami on May 28, 2012 3:25:50 GMT -5
What I mean is the eternal suffering caused after death. Instead of creating all the people who are going to Hell, create all the people who aren't going to Hell instead and forget about the others.
What I'm getting at is, God shouldn't create something that is going to suffer eternally.
|
|
|
Post by Shark a' Pult on May 28, 2012 11:30:57 GMT -5
He doesn't create those people though that's the point. They create themselves.
Now whether they earn their eternal suffering is questionable, but it is only ever their fault. Effectively God makes a blank slate, and our choices and actions determine what is written on it.
The same holds true for people who go to heaven. They are not there because God willed it. They are there because they earned their place in life.
---
At least this is how I think the whole thing works.
|
|
|
Post by Hitotsumami on May 28, 2012 11:52:48 GMT -5
But God is all knowing, so it isn't exactly a blank slate. When a human is created and born, God knows weather that person will go to hell or not. It doesn't matter what that person decides to do in life, God already knows the outcome. Even if God didn't know the outcome (which he should, being all-knowing), he at least knows that a portion he creates will go to Hell.
Why he would create a person knowing that person's only reason for existence is to suffer eternally is what I have a problem with.
|
|
|
Post by Shark a' Pult on May 28, 2012 18:31:25 GMT -5
But God is all knowing, so it isn't exactly a blank slate. When a human is created and born, God knows weather that person will go to hell or not. It doesn't matter what that person decides to do in life, God already knows the outcome. Even if God didn't know the outcome (which he should, being all-knowing), he at least knows that a portion he creates will go to Hell. Why he would create a person knowing that person's only reason for existence is to suffer eternally is what I have a problem with. Just because he knew what they were going to do, doesn't mean he has any control over it. Again, people act for themselves. Heck, even the actions of evil people have purpose and can cause salvation in ways. That said though, I was always under the impression that when people say "God has a plan", that doesn't literally mean he knows what people are going to do. Like I've seen one style of belief where God is literally all powerful and has planned everything and everyone out till the end of time. Then I have seen the kind where God is all powerful, but he cannot determine how people will live or act because he has no bearing upon free will. If we are going with what is more plausible for a system of belief, then I would agree with you in the case of the first, where God is literally creating people to go to hell. I don't care what God is to you, that's just not right and it's not fair. However in the second case, it basically turns what you said on its head.
|
|