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Post by Hitotsumami on Aug 15, 2012 0:46:59 GMT -5
Let's have another religion debate thread.
This is separate from the main religion thread because that thread is too broad to have any real discussion on some of the more finer points about religion.
This thread will focus on the Christian God and his sense of morality.
The main question is: Is God good, or is God not good?
I certainly believe that God has demonstrated in the Bible that he is certainly not good. The main reason I believe God is not good is because of his, what I would call, evil doings throughout the Bible, from laws that command the killing of homosexuals, to laws that state a person raped has to marry her rapist, to the story of Job, to the story of Elisha and the bears.
I'll explain further later in the thread.
If you propose the Christian God is a good God, what is your reason?
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Post by CJ on Aug 15, 2012 1:17:58 GMT -5
Is God good? This is an incredibly deep question, despite having only three words. It's something I, as a Catholic, ask myself all of the time. What is good and why are we to obey this higher power? Is it all worth it in the end?
If we assume He exists, it's extremely distressing. The Old Testament has many instances of killing, violence, sexual crimes and otherwise to deter most people away from it.
A lot of it has to do with context though. For example, I know it seems like having a victim marry her rapist is a punishment, but it is more of an unavoidable alternative. In those days, once a woman was "unclean," she could no longer marry. Her only option was to marry her rapist. I understand this thinking was wrong but it was the only way to protect the woman at this point. Otherwise she would be shunned in society.
Another small example has to do with incredibly misquoted excerpt against homosexuality in the Book of Leviticus. This was not because they disapproved of homosexuality but because they did not want to waste sperm because of population issues. Now, the New Testament has other things to say about homosexuality but this is just one instance taken out of context in the Old Testament.
Is God good? I can't answer that. It has a lot to do with pure faith. I think that everything happens for a reason. As corny as that is, I believe that people who live by their love for God and others first achieve the most out of life and ultimate happiness. I just hope the Dude in the Clouds feels the same way.
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Post by Hitotsumami on Aug 15, 2012 1:30:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the response CJ
Yes, I am assuming he exists for this thread.
Did God not notice this huge flaw? Did he not see this from the start of mankind that rape victims would end up being forced to marry their rapists just so they could remain in society? Surely he saw this coming, and surely he could have set things straight with the people of that time. He is all powerful after all.
The argument that it was just how things were done in the culture sounds more like a non-fundamentalist point of view, in my opinion.
Is wasting sperm really such a terrible thing that it deserves death, especially such horribly painful death by stoning? Honestly, you're kind of hurting the population problem even more by killing people.
Also, as you mentioned, there are other places in the bible that mention homosexuality, and not for reasons of population, but because of the natural order of things. They also mention female sexuality, and there is no sperm involved then.
I do not see how your point works with my above two paragraphs.
By this, are you saying the end justifies the means? I don't want to put words in your mouth, so tell me otherwise.
Finally, I also believe that love for others is a key factor in a happy life
Again, thanks for your response~
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Post by CJ on Aug 15, 2012 9:34:12 GMT -5
I should have mentioned I explained those two points to describe how things can be misinterpreted in the Bible. By this, are you saying the end justifies the means? I don't want to put words in your mouth, so tell me otherwise. It's more of the end happened because of the actions. A huge part of Judaism and Christianity is that evil and suffering happened because we abandoned God's love. For example, the rape that would have lead to the woman's suffering was not part of God's plan but of humanity's doing. The law was set into motion so that the woman could continue her life from that point. And yes, sperm isn't all that great but for the Old Testament people, I guess it was. There are tons of laws that don't really seem logical for us today. "We've got population problems so if we see any men screwing around, you're gonna get killed." Yeah, it doesn't really make any sense. Most of those Old Testament policies were fulfilled and terminated through Jesus' actions on Earth so they don't stand today. A lot of extreme Christians seem to not understand this information part of their faith. Finally, I also believe that love for others is a key factor in a happy life Again, thanks for your response~ Yay! Same! It's amazing how tons of Christians (from my experience) seem to forget that.
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Post by crocoduck on Aug 15, 2012 11:47:25 GMT -5
For me, this question is a fundamental flaw in not just the Christian god, but most monotheistic religion's god.
These religions, for the most part, claim that God is omnipotent and omniscient. He sees the past, present and future. He can influence any and all events and he knows any and all things that will happen. How it is that a being like this can permit evil, I do not understand.
People claim that he allows free will, but if that's the case, then what's with the miracles we hear about? If god heals people from diseases, why does he allow others that are perfectly good people to die of circumstances they did not choose? That innocent child that died in a hurricane, why? That innocent bystander that was struck by a stray bullet, why?
The logic behind it is severely flawed and it's one of the biggest reasons I lost my faith early on. Along those same lines, it always bothered me to no end that a supposedly perfect entity would condemn people to hell for not believing in it. A buddhist monk that spends every day doing nothing but helping others and enlightening themselves is going to go to hell. This is a man that sweeps the floor in front of him to make sure he doesn't step on a bug. Yet he still burns for eternity because he believed in the wrong thing.
If you were to look at all of God's actions in the bible and make a bulleted list of it and then sum up his personality, you'd realize he really looks like a crappy antagonist in a really fucked up story.
and really sorry if any of this was harshly worded, honestly didn't mean to.
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Post by Hitotsumami on Aug 15, 2012 11:55:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the response
But God knew it was going to happen. It had to be part of his plan. If you knew a situation like that was going to develop, would you not try your best to prevent it?
How do you determine which laws we keep and which laws we put away?
And regardless, the God of today was the same God who commanded all of those terrible laws, some that make no sense. And most of these "crimes" involve a horrible, painful death. Could God really see no other option for the 'criminal' other than a painful death?
Thanks again
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Post by crocoduck on Aug 15, 2012 12:21:36 GMT -5
Talked about this on facebook before. there's a good deal of back and forth between me and others, feel free to read through it and i'd be happy to continue debate either here or on facebook if you're interested.
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